Damn fine post, Retvari.

Thank you for taking the time to think things through, present your rational opinion, and even offer an idea I hadn't heard before. Money as a resource :) I'll have to ponder that one.

Thanks again for replying, and welcome to the boinc_projects list. I think you'll like it.

Yes you should and that's EXACTLY what the Boinc Sudoku Project did!! You 'played' a game with the computer doing all the moves at it's max speed with no user input involved. The purpose was to figure out how best to solve the puzzles.

Here, take a closer look at what you yourself said: "The purpose was to figure out..." Now, can you recognize the general differences between bitcoin mining and other BOINC projects and why some of us think bitcoin mining shouldn't be a BOINC project?

In one message you say this "At the heart of the matter though, what you seem to really be arguing overall is that anything can and should be a BOINC project and award BOINC points regardless of what it does or doesn't do; I suppose as long as it can use distributed computing in some way. That's fine if that's your opinion. I (and Retvari Zoltan*, it would seem) just don't agree with it. There's no need to dwell on and debate the minutia of our differences of opinion."

And now in this message you seem to be going back to trying to argue what is or isn't a valid Boinc Project. I guess the key here is they NEITHER your nor I get to decide what does and what does not become a Boinc Project. Bitcoin Utopia IS a Boinc Project, there is no going back and undoing that or total chaos will consume the whole thing and the writing will be on the wall for the end of Boinc. Could other choices have been...woulda, coulda, shoulda, you cannot rewrite the past!!

Hi, mikey.

Sorry if I was being overly confrontational. Really, I was just trying to point out some of our (or at least my) reasoning for having this opinion. Though as mentioned, you might of course still not agree with it, which is fine.

And yes, we can't change the past, but at least we can learn from it and try to change what we can for a better future.

Thanks for your time.

---

My BOINC Cruncher, Minecraft Multiserver, Mobile Device Mainframe, and Home Entertainment System/Workstation: http://www.overclock.net/lists/display/view/id/4678036#

For your information:
I've just sent the following letter to this mailing list:

...

Thanks for sending this e-mail. If it were a petition, I would sign it.

Hopefully something productive and beneficial can come of this. I don't think the BOINC community wants to be known and promoted as a bitcoin mining donation service that also does some trivial (in comparison) amount of data crunching for scientific and humanitarian research on the side.

---

My BOINC Cruncher, Minecraft Multiserver, Mobile Device Mainframe, and Home Entertainment System/Workstation: http://www.overclock.net/lists/display/view/id/4678036#

Put more personally and in another way: Is the work I have my computer do really that worthless in comparison and how much could I a save on my electric bill if I didn't feel it was meaningful?

This is a rhetorical and reflective question for the most part, though to be honest, I have had several people ask me why I bother with this BOINC business, and I can't find an easy way to justify it to them, so it often gets written off as just an eccentric hobby of mine, which I think is unfortunate. It almost seems as though people aren't supposed to be taken seriously if they care about anything these days unless they're a mad-eyed fanatic or something. Guess I'd rather be taken as being an eccentric than a fanatic.

(My apologies for the multiple posts in a row, but I'm unable to edit my previous messages beyond an hour and tend to think of things to add to them. Maybe I should just leave a typed out message up for a few hours and edit it as needed before posting it.)

---

My BOINC Cruncher, Minecraft Multiserver, Mobile Device Mainframe, and Home Entertainment System/Workstation: http://www.overclock.net/lists/display/view/id/4678036#

I hope that some of my thoughts went through that mailing list.

Your opinion is unique, and others don't speak for you. So far as I know, your thoughts are underrepresented.

If you'd like your voice to be better heard, please bring constructive ideas to the BOINC "Projects" (boinc_projects) email list.
https://boinc.berkeley.edu/email_lists.php
Please read through the recent archives, before joining the list.

Thanks,
Jacob

For your information:
I've just sent the following letter to this mailing list:

The BitCoin Utopia phenomenon.........

Zoltan

Impressive - well said (typed) Zoltan.

For your information:
I've just sent the following letter to this mailing list:

The BitCoin Utopia phenomenon
Zoltan

I too think it was very well written and wish to say thank you for writing it, ALL sides of any discussion should be represented and you stated your opinion very well, and in the right place for the right people to hear it.

Thank you guys. Especially Mikey.

Just so you guys know, for my project where I determine which toasters shoot out PopTarts the fastest... I plan on offering 20,000 BOINC credits per PopTart analyzed by my video analysis app that a donator runs.

How's that for "science" :)

My point is that, in my opinion, BOINC could be used for almost anything. And, the project owner can determine how to pay credit. And aggregated stats were meant to record FLOPS. And by default, they should show FLOPS. But some users might want to see their PopTart credits also somehow, and showing them should also be somehow supported (but separate from FLOPS).

...

How's that for "science" :)

...

Of course you're joking, but since you mention it, I do believe and would agree that that technically would at least be a form of scientific research, unlike bitcoin mining, though hopefully you'll forgive me if I don't jump at the chance to sign up for that project. :)

---

My BOINC Cruncher, Minecraft Multiserver, Mobile Device Mainframe, and Home Entertainment System/Workstation: http://www.overclock.net/lists/display/view/id/4678036#

...

How's that for "science" :)

...

Of course you're joking, but since you mention it, I do believe and would agree that that technically would at least be a form of scientific research, unlike bitcoin mining, though hopefully you'll forgive me if I don't jump at the chance to sign up for that project. :)

It certainly WOULD be about Science, gravity, and using or overcoming it can be very complicated and technical!! IE which spring design gives the most oomph with the least amount of metal, cost etc, etc. Also does a quick release work better then a slow one etc. Didn't Nasa use a spring and a spin device to 'launch' the satellites out of the shuttle when it was flying?

Retvari I may be passionate about my opinions, but do enjoy seeing others give their opinions too, I find I tend to learn more that way! I hear things I might never have thought of otherwise!!

.1

One of the things this thread has shed (plenty of) light on is a hidden motive of some high-level crunchers for crunching for GPUGRID (or perhaps more generally for GPU crunching):

Big bucks (sorry credits)!

I keep reading posts about how altruistic people are and how they go off buying expensive kit to crunch for science.. and then they go off whining about how unfairly BU gives tons of credit in a day, that they have taken years to get!

I don't understand, aren't you doing it for the science??

If you are really doing what you do for the science of the thing, why whine so much about the credits?? Ignore them! At least, ignore non-GPUGRID credits! They won't be affected by BU or any other nonsense we-re-here-to-help-the-children(-and-make-a-buck-ourselves) type of project!

If you primarily care about your position in the combined world Boinc charts though...

perhaps Dagorath was right.

Hi, Jozef J.

Some of what you say is likely partly true, but please don't be so quick to judge the motivation and integrity of others. It is easy to vilify people you might not agree with. (For example: Is it wrong for me to have assumed based on your post that you have done a share of bitcoin mining yourself before confirming that you have?) Of course we all do this to help in ways that we feel are meaningful, regardless of points (though they can be an additional incentive).

I myself only just recently (about a week and a half ago) started crunching for GPUGrid, and only crunch for BOINC on one PC. However, I also very much feel that bitcoin mining has very little to directly do with scientific & humanitarian research, even if some amount of its generated wealth goes to finance those efforts. I don't agree with it having been made to be a BOINC project in the first place, though that opinion may be irrelevant at this point. I also think the point and scoring system for BOINC should be proportional to the amount of computing work toward scientific & humanitarian research that has been done. Of course this can't easily be precisely measured, but that doesn't mean the scoring system shouldn't strive to do as best as it can at it.

Let me put it to you another way: The point system should be a measurement of something relevant and beneficial to the community at least. Otherwise what is the point in having it at all? As it is now, and as I previously stated, it looks like the primary purpose of BOINC is to be a bitcoin mining donation service that contributes a trivial amount of actual crunching for research on the side.

Additionally, with the way the scoring system is currently set up, it quite likely somewhat detracts current and future BOINC contributors from crunching for scientific & humanitarian research projects, which is in my opinion significantly unfortunate.

---

My BOINC Cruncher, Minecraft Multiserver, Mobile Device Mainframe, and Home Entertainment System/Workstation: http://www.overclock.net/lists/display/view/id/4678036#

(For example: Is it wrong for me to have assumed based on your post that you have done a share of bitcoin mining yourself before confirming that you have?)

If you just click on a person name in the left hand column you can usually see which projects they are, or have been, crunching for, and their total contribution to each. It does NOT show a cumulative number though, because as Jozef J says, each projects credits are only related to that project, not any other project.

For instance I now have 3 projects with over a billion credits each, that and a couple of dollars can be a cup of coffee at my local Starbucks! Credits reflect the contribution to THAT project and that project alone. BUT because we are human beings and naturally competitive the stats sites have a running total so you can compare where you stand as compared to all other Boinc crunchers. MOST of us ignore that number though because we just cannot compete with the people who have access to rooms full of pc's, making the whole thing VERY subjective!! I have 15 pc's running here at my home, from dual core pc's to 6 core pc's, most have gpu's crunching in them, that is nothing but a drop in the bucket to people who have access to DOZENS AND DOZENS of pc's at their work place, yet the World Standings do not reflect the total number of pc's a person has.

A while back Retvari mentioned he had reached 38th in the World, even with his current RAC here of 3,932,107 he is now only 91st. I once got as high as 48th, today I am 79th, it means NOTHING at all, it is just numbers! I have contributed Credit: 73,034,540 here, Retvari has Credit: 3,633,028,062, you Wrend have Credit: 10,818,300, while Jozef J has Credit: 500,958,862 and Jacob Klein has Credit: 238,477,385, to me THOSE are the ONLY numbers that matter!! That means I am ahead of you and Jozef J, but behind Retvari and Jacob Klein!! BUT it is NOT a competition unless YOU AND I think of it as one, if you think of it as just contributing then my 'competing' with you is a non event, as YOU aren't competing with ME!! I may secretly want to kick Retvari's and Jacob Klein's butts, but if they don't resist what's the point? In the end the ONLY thing that matters is that GpuGrid gets their workunits crunched and they get further along towards achieving their goals.

ps I am NOT here to kick ANYONES butts!!! I have my own 'goals' and they are what they are and have NO relation to any other cruncher!!

I openly want to kick all your butts in stats.

I monitor my stats here:
http://boincstats.com/en/stats/-1/user/detail/4275/lastDays
http://boincstats.com/en/stats/-1/user/detail/4275/charts
Credit per day, and Rank, both matter to me.

I monitor BOINC's overall stats here:
http://boincstats.com/en/stats/projectStatsInfo

And I investigate any new project, usually hearing about them here:
http://boincstats.com/en/page/projectNews

I spent the $45 on a tiny USB ASIC, to experience BOINC's implementation of it (since I'm an alpha tester), and to experience the stats phenomenon. I will admit that seeing the numbers go up that fast, really is exhilarating for a stats junkie.

I agree with Retvari that something must be done about Bitcoin Utopia's current ASIC "stats-grab", and I agree with David Anderson that ASICs are non-generic (ie: they are project-specific) and should not count in the aggregate stats.

And, if I made a PopTart analyzing app, if I paid credits by "computational FLOPs spent analyzing", it SHOULD be included in the aggregate stats, but if I paid "a certain credit amount per PopTart analyzed", it shouldn't, because that would be a project-specific concept.

That is as simple as I can make it.

No changes will not, my, your voice or anyone else has the same weight ..
No man in BOINC is not important. more or less
If you Retvari or other jakob of mind will change anything so you are wrong.

It is important to support projects through BU. While not rising to astronomical deliverability
There will already explained steveblackops of BU project is not infinite, bitcoin can be mined, in theory.

And you one question-I was involved in SETI WOW event. where I am with ALL MY HW RAC reached about ONLY 90,000 ... the RAC 90,000 in GPUGrid me enough cards for 75 eu second hand ...why do not complain to ?????

Gotcha kicked you to realize how big the difference is between the Support Yes the CPU and GPU projects projects ?!

All the talk about a commercial or non-commercial platform boinc are due RAC nothing more and nothing less..

I openly want to kick all your butts in stats.

And, if I made a PopTart analyzing app, if I paid credits by "computational FLOPs spent analyzing", it SHOULD be included in the aggregate stats, but if I paid "a certain credit amount per PopTart analyzed", it shouldn't, because that would be a project-specific concept.

That is as simple as I can make it.

The ONLY problem with that is that there is MORE then one project paying a fixed amount of credit per workunit finished right now, and they ARE included in the stats too! Cosmology being one of them that I am crunching right now, GpuGrid being another!

Fine.

I will offer 500 million credits per PopTart. Who's going to stop me?

GPUGrid, I think, at least sets their "base credit amount" using the length of time the task would run on one of their in-lab GPUs. Then they tweak it a bit, especially the long-runs, to award more since they are more error-prone and require continuous running in order to get prompt results back.

Their "basis", as I said though, is based on performance of GPU. I didn't do calculations, but I'm betting the short-runs are near in-line with the amounts of credits most projects pay per FLOP.

I'm not certain how Cosmology does it. But I know that, if I paid per PopTart, that's neither an apple nor an orange, if you get my drift.

Side note: Which would you rather have? 500 million credits? Or 1 PopTart? I wonder how many people would want the credits :)

Side note: Which would you rather have? 500 million credits? Or 1 PopTart? I wonder how many people would want the credits :)

I'll take the PopTart.

What I mean is, I've always thought it made sense to track contribution by the total number of tasks completed. Credits don't mean much to me and I often find myself working backwards to figure out how many work units I've completed for a project based on the amount of credit I have. Personally, I think that's a more meaningful statistic.

Side note: Which would you rather have? 500 million credits? Or 1 PopTart? I wonder how many people would want the credits :)

I'll take the PopTart.

What I mean is, I've always thought it made sense to track contribution by the total number of tasks completed. Credits don't mean much to me and I often find myself working backwards to figure out how many work units I've completed for a project based on the amount of credit I have. Personally, I think that's a more meaningful statistic.

They did that before Boinc at Seti, it made for some easy to cheat scandals, they went this way because it was easier to monitor and police. I have no idea which is better but it could be waaaay too late to change now, unless of course we all just start over, and that may not go over so well either. People like their cpu contributions and now their gpu contributions, to wipe them all out could be a no fun time!!