I get the impression many GPUgrid crunchers would like to try Linux but are turned off by reports from those who have tried and either gave up or failed. What are the stumbling blocks? How could the whole process of installing Linux and BOINC and setting it up to crunch GPUgrid be made easier? Is it simply installing the OS itself? Is it installing BOINC? Is it the NVIDIA drivers? Let's discuss it and see if I and some of the other Linux users here can provide some scripts or packages that automate some of the harder parts.

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BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

I have no idea what is so hard on Linux, but I've been on Linux since 2001 and I'm very familiar with it and a terminal doesn't scare me away. I guess this is the most scary part for newcomers. They don't know Linux/UNIX commands so they don't know what to enter in a terminal and it takes (lots) time to Google, read and then enter the commands

That said, installing BOINC on Linux is as easy as entering a few commands (or using a GUI interface to install packages) in a terminal. Most distro's package BOINC so people can easily install it.

In case one needs to compile BOINC, I've written on the Team Belgium forum how to do that. My experience is compiling on openSUSE but it should be the same on other distro's too. http://teambelgium.net:8080/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=18

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Team Belgium

I tried GPUGrid about a year ago on Linux. It went fine for awhile; then I started getting lots of segfaults. Nobody seemed to be fixing the problem, so I left. This year WUs seem to be doing much better.

I've heard SMXI (and SGFXI) may be good driver install scripts, but I haven't tried them.

I have no idea what is so hard on Linux, but I've been on Linux since 2001 and I'm very familiar with it and a terminal doesn't scare me away. I guess this is the most scary part for newcomers. They don't know Linux/UNIX commands so they don't know what to enter in a terminal and it takes (lots) time to Google, read and then enter the commands

Terminal usage and CLI are daunting. I would like to engineer something that requires little or no terminal usage for installing BOINC, the shared libs BOINC requires and the NVIDIA drivers. Ideally they install Linux, allow it to install the updates then download a script they simply click on. The script checks the system's resources and installs the recommended BOINC and the recommended NVIDIA drivers. The script could have a GUI, a curses interface or plain CLI. The script would adjust all the permissions and take care of all the niggling details.

Even more convenient for newbies would be to derive a new Linux distro that installs everything required for BOINC and GPUgrid crunching when the OS installs. It would also have a daemon that checks for BOINC and NVIDIA driver updates, informs the user updates are available and installs them if and when the user wants them.

That said, installing BOINC on Linux is as easy as entering a few commands (or using a GUI interface to install packages) in a terminal. Most distro's package BOINC so people can easily install it.

That's an easy way to install BOINC on Linux but that's all it is. There are no regular updates and that sucks big time. What users need is a daemon that checks the BOINC website for new versions and installs them. The BOINC as a daemon concept is not useful for most newbies either because it installs everything on the boinc account. Later, when the user needs to install an app_info.xml or even edit gui_rpc_auth.cfg he doesn't have permission. Yes, there are easy ways to acquire the permissions but newbies are invariably stumped. Linux permissions are so foreign to them they don't have a clue. No matter how hard you try to explain it they invariably botch the commands and screw up the permissions on a dozen other things and bugger the entire system. That's when they go back to Windows and vow never to return to Linux land. So, BOINC needs to be installed on their own account rather than some unprivileged user's account. The client needs to be setup to autostart at boot time and there needs to be a way for the user to easily prevent it from starting at boot time. There needs to be a clickable icon on the desktop or task launcher that starts BOINC manager.

What crunchers need is to get up and crunching quickly and easily with a minimum of decision making and command typing. They don't want their RAC to decay while they're messing around learning about Linux permissions and learning to check what they've typed on the command line and waiting for their online helper to realize he spelled the command wrong or missed a vital space character when he posted the command the newbie needs to get BOINC running. Been there, done that, ain't going through that again.

I think the solution is a script that sets it all up. The script is limited in scope to just one distro to keep it simple and it gets tested thoroughly before it's released. After the newbie is up and running and crunching he does a complete backup so he can restore everything easily and then and only then is he ready to learn the inner workings of Linux, the CLI and whatnot.

In case one needs to compile BOINC, I've written on the Team Belgium forum how to do that. My experience is compiling on openSUSE but it should be the same on other distro's too. http://teambelgium.net:8080/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=18

Thanks but compiling BOINC is the last thing a newbie wants to do and the last thing a newbie should need to do.

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BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

I tried GPUGrid about a year ago on Linux. It went fine for awhile; then I started getting lots of segfaults. Nobody seemed to be fixing the problem, so I left. This year WUs seem to be doing much better.

I've heard SMXI (and SGFXI) may be good driver install scripts, but I haven't tried them.

Thanks, I had never heard of those before. I checked them out and they look very good except for one deficiency. The author has condemned himself to a lifetime of script maintenance and updates by not making the script aware of new driver releases. In other words, whenever NVIDIA releases a new driver he has to add the new driver to the script and provide the new version of the script for download. If he ever decides to not update the script anymore it becomes useless code. I think I can do better than that and make the script intelligent enough to check for driver updates itself. Maybe the SGFXI author tried that idea and maybe there is a good reason why it doesn't work. OK, I guess one hurdle would be that NVIDIA might change their website or FTP site structure to something the script can't understand but that problem would occur far less frequently than a driver update.

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BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

Dagorath, I don't know what's possible, since i've never learned programming, but a GPUGrid/BOINC distro sounds like a really good idea. If it was possible to have a web interface somehow, similar to linux firewalls and NAS distros, in the way you can point and click and select what to do, then that would be awesome.

But again, i've no idea if this is at all possible with BOINC. If it is, one could have a headless box, and still be able to manage the box without hassle of logging in via terminal etc. This I think is one way to make it very simple for non-experienced linux users. Still, they would need to install it first of course, but installing a basic linux distro, like Ubuntu for instance, now adays can be very simple.

I use linux myself, and recently installed the newest nvidia drivers on my boxes, and it was quite a hassle in the way that the 'nouveau' drivers as it were, wouldn't get disabled until i wrote some lines in grub.cfg, which is what could really turn off new users. It required some research and hairpulling, since the Nvidia install script could not do this automatically.

How about a list of what crunchers really need from Linux and then figure out how to approach each aspect. I think clear instruction is more important - scripts and GUI can come later.

1.  Install and update operating system
- How about using same flavor / version as the GPUGrid team itself?
- Include network / wifi configuration

2.  Install and update anti-virus
- Or is the Linux world 'immune' from virus?

3.  Install and update nvidia drivers
- How to do this "on demand" - we don't need or necessarily want
to update to the newest drivers and there have been problems in the past.

- How about using same version as the GPUGrid team itself?

4.  Install and update nvidia monitoring
- Would be nice to be able to check temps and 'down-clocking' 

5.  Install and update nvidia oc tooling (not necessary but would be nice).

6.  Install and update cpu monitoring

7.  Install and update boinc

- We are all on the same team so let's try to stay focused on the technology and show each other some respect. Quit calling me a newbie and talking about how I've failed and given up, how I don't already know things you find easy, what I find daunting and what scares me. All that's nothing but blowing smoke and frankly one of the biggest turnoffs I've encountered about Linux so far.

Please take a step back and keep the focus on the technology.

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Thanks - Steve

Dagorath, I don't know what's possible, since i've never learned programming, but a GPUGrid/BOINC distro sounds like a really good idea. If it was possible to have a web interface somehow, similar to linux firewalls and NAS distros, in the way you can point and click and select what to do, then that would be awesome.

But again, i've no idea if this is at all possible with BOINC. If it is, one could have a headless box, and still be able to manage the box without hassle of logging in via terminal etc. This I think is one way to make it very simple for non-experienced linux users. Still, they would need to install it first of course, but installing a basic linux distro, like Ubuntu for instance, now adays can be very simple.

As for the BOINC portion of the system you propose, that much would be easy thanks to BOINC's rpc interface. Unfortunately one needs to be able to interact with and maintain the OS too and there's the rub. I'm sure it's doable but it would be a huge job to provide, via a web/browser interface, all of the functionality one needs to maintain the OS. That need doesn't just disappear because the system is managed from a web interface. In the end it would be no better than desktop sharing which we already have. I'm all for reinventing the wheel if it will be a better wheel but I don't think it could be a better wheel in this case.

I use linux myself, and recently installed the newest nvidia drivers on my boxes, and it was quite a hassle in the way that the 'nouveau' drivers as it were, wouldn't get disabled until i wrote some lines in grub.cfg, which is what could really turn off new users. It required some research and hairpulling, since the Nvidia install script could not do this automatically.

I had the same trouble on Ubuntu 12.04 and putting lines in grub.cfg that should have caused a boot to a terminal didn't work for me. If you were using Ubuntu 12.04 and that method worked for you I would be very interested in knowing exactly what you put in grub.cfg because a solution like that is easy to include in a script. I found a slightly easier solution than the one you used but still it was "manual" and not something the average new user wants to go through and it's not a scriptable solution either. The only other option I see at this time is to use a distro and/or desktop that allows dropping to a terminal and disabling the nouveau driver with a simple "init 3" command in a script. That would mean either Debian, openSuse or Fedora, none of which realize that the ridiculousness of the their neurotic, overly-zealous, "pure, unencumbered open-source or we won't have it" user unfriendly policy is what guarantees they will never be as popular as Ubuntu.

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BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

How about a list of what crunchers really need from Linux and then figure out how to approach each aspect. I think clear instruction is more important - scripts and GUI can come later.

I tried clear and detailed instructions 2 years ago. I put over 100 hours of work into it. Yes, 100 hours. Before I released it to the general public I gave it to several Windows users who had expressed a desire to try Linux. Their unanimous opinion was that the length of the instructions was too scary. Not one of them even attempted it; they just blew it off on looks alone. 100 hours of hard work researching, testing, editing out "excessive wordiness" to make it concise and they just blew it off because it looked scary. Never again.

I'll give a "do it all script" or maybe a "do it all distro" a try and if that doesn't work then they can just bloody well man up and do what I did which is hunker down, learn to read and follow instructions, learn to ask meaningful questions, learn to at least try and post what you've already tried before whining for help, learn to not jump to ridiculous conclusions like "the all cheese pizza I ate last night caused my 'puter to crash, nothing else changed so it must be that, I knew I should have stuck with my usual pepperoni and green pepper", and learn Linux the usual way which is to WORK at it until you finally get it.

1.  Install and update operating system
- How about using same flavor / version as the GPUGrid team itself?
- Include network / wifi configuration

2.  Install and update anti-virus
- Or is the Linux world 'immune' from virus?

3.  Install and update nvidia drivers
- How to do this "on demand" - we don't need or necessarily want
to update to the newest drivers and there have been problems in the past.

- How about using same version as the GPUGrid team itself?

4.  Install and update nvidia monitoring
- Would be nice to be able to check temps and 'down-clocking' 

5.  Install and update nvidia oc tooling (not necessary but would be nice).

6.  Install and update cpu monitoring

7.  Install and update boinc

1) I see no benefit in using the same flavor/version as the GPUgrid team but if someone could point out a benefit I would be willing to consider it. Network and wifi configuration just happens on Linux. It's not like Windows which needs a configuration wizard for some reason. Linux just does it and it just works. The only exception is if the system has a non-standards compliant ethernet/wifi adaptor in which case it might need some manual setup. Fortunately it seems non-standards compliant devices have disappeared so network and wifi driver installation and setup issues are a thing of the past.

2) Virus protection... Only fools claim Linux is immune from viruses and attack. I may be stupid but I'm no fool ;-)
Anti-virus for the average user is minimal on Linux but on some distros it installs easily as a package from repository. It could easily be installed and configured in the kind of "do it all script" I propose.

3) NVIDIA drivers... yep, one of the bigger problesm and I agree 100% with the "on demand" idea. Again, that's all scriptable and at the top of the priority list for the "do it all script" or "do it all distro" I propose and am quite prepared to build and provide. As for using the same drivers as the GPUgrid team.... hmmm... that's doable if and only if they provide the driver version they are using in an easily accessible way and update that info on a regular basis. But I suspect they use a variety of driver versions. That's not to say I won't do it, just saying I would need to see a better reason than any of the reasons I can see in my mind. If you have a better reason then I'm willing to listen.

4) NVIDIA monitoring... the GUI app that ships with NVIDIA drivers for Linux does a pretty good job of that. It has a few deficiencies but I've mostly overcome those deficiencies with my gpu_d script which I intend to develop even further.

5) OC tooling... the current state of NVIDIA drivers for Linux doesn't allow OC. There may be ways around that and I am investigating. I can say that if temps are kept below 70*C then cards auto-boost clocks nicely on Linux.

6) CPU monitoring... easily done via "do it all script" or "do it all distro", piece of cake.

7) BOINC... I've got ideas for that and they're good. If I don't get any feedback on what the issues are with BOINC install then I'll just do it my way.

- We are all on the same team so let's try to stay focused on the technology and show each other some respect. Quit calling me a newbie and talking about how I've failed and given up, how I don't already know things you find easy, what I find daunting and what scares me. All that's nothing but blowing smoke and frankly one of the biggest turnoffs I've encountered about Linux so far.

I have a choice between typing "newbie" and "Windows users who are new to Linux". Given that choice what would you type? If you have a term that means the same as what I mean by newbie that you prefer then please let me know. New Linux users regularly call themselves newbies or noobs. In the Linux world we don't get all up tight about that stuff.

Regarding "failure"... I have a choice between saying "failed" and "didn't quite meet the challenge". Given that choice, what would you say? If there is another term that you find less offensive please let me know but bear in mind that in the Linux world we see nothing wrong with failure. It's regarded as part of the learning process.

Regarding how you don't know things I find easy... that works both ways... I don't a lot of things you find easy and I don't feel uncomfortable when you point that out. And if I did I wouldn't whine about it, I'd just suck it up and learn.

Please take a step back and keep the focus on the technology.

Thank you. I'll try to do that but I also want to offer some advice in return, grasshopper.... Linux isn't easy and if anyone wants to learn it then they best be prepared to fail and be not afraid to admit it. It's not just a technical challenge it's a mental/psyche/personality challenge as well. If I call you newbie or grasshopper it doesn't mean I hate you or that I laugh at you, it simply means I know what you are and I know your struggle because I was a newbie and a grasshopper one day too (and still am in many Linux circles) but I wore that moniker proudly because it meant I was no longer a frickin lemming.

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BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

I have no idea what is so hard on Linux, but I've been on Linux since 2001 and I'm very familiar with it and a terminal doesn't scare me away. I guess this is the most scary part for newcomers. They don't know Linux/UNIX commands so they don't know what to enter in a terminal and it takes (lots) time to Google, read and then enter the commands

Terminal usage and CLI are daunting. I would like to engineer something that requires little or no terminal usage for installing BOINC, the shared libs BOINC requires and the NVIDIA drivers. Ideally they install Linux, allow it to install the updates then download a script they simply click on. The script checks the system's resources and installs the recommended BOINC and the recommended NVIDIA drivers. The script could have a GUI, a curses interface or plain CLI. The script would adjust all the permissions and take care of all the niggling details.

YES THIS!!

Even more convenient for newbies would be to derive a new Linux distro that installs everything required for BOINC and GPUgrid crunching when the OS installs. It would also have a daemon that checks for BOINC and NVIDIA driver updates, informs the user updates are available and installs them if and when the user wants them.

I think this would end up being too time consuming to keep updated.

What crunchers need is to get up and crunching quickly and easily with a minimum of decision making and command typing. They don't want their RAC to decay while they're messing around learning about Linux permissions and learning to check what they've typed on the command line and waiting for their online helper to realize he spelled the command wrong or missed a vital space character when he posted the command the newbie needs to get BOINC running. Been there, done that, ain't going through that again.

I think the solution is a script that sets it all up. The script is limited in scope to just one distro to keep it simple and it gets tested thoroughly before it's released. After the newbie is up and running and crunching he does a complete backup so he can restore everything easily and then and only then is he ready to learn the inner workings of Linux, the CLI and whatnot.

YES, YES, YES!!! For instance use Ubuntu LT and make a package that the user can choose from a list such as if he has an Nvidia or AMD gpu, and installs the proper drivers. Then Boinc runs and the person goes thru the process of setting up the project, and it looks similar enough to the Windows version that they can just get Boinc up and crunching asap. All of this with very little input from the user and no command line stuff.

Ubuntu LT is JUST an example, it really doesn't matter as whatever works on most Intel and AMD cpu machines is what's needed. Windows is he!!bent on the licensing aspects and way too many people are getting frustrated and would like to move away and have heard about Linux, but it is just too daunting if you haven't done it before, or in awhile. Sure you can install Linux and be cpu crunching in no time, but gpu crunching is a whole other matter and sometimes you even need to put in delays etc to make it work. Then other times it won't automatically start back up again after a pc restart, you click the X and the thing shuts down unlike in Windows where it minimizes, etc, etc. In short all kinds of differences between the two OS's is the problem in getting people to switch and just crunch.

I don't need a machine that does dvd recording or whatever, I just need a setup that can be expanded to do that later on if I wish, but gets me up and crunching asap.

I have been using Linux for quite a few years now. I still find that they are the most counter-intuitive OS (compared to Windows and OSX) with the highest learning curve and the highest instability.

Don't misunderstand me, I love working in Linux and cannot imagine working in Windows.

BUT I have never managed to crash Windows as badly as Linux and so frequently. Here's a list of my favorites:

Try installing a nice screensaver? Reboot and you are back to console without a clue on how to boot into gnome because your x-server configuration got fucked up.
Try installing the ATI drivers for your graphics card manually (not from a repo)? Reboot - graphics are all fucked up and there is no Add/Remove Programs where you can find the drivers to uninstall them.
Connect my USB sound card? Machine freezes requiring reboot.
Second hard drive dead? Can't reboot into gnome, have to fix from command line.
Right click on Nvidia manager panel icon to configure second monitor? Crash machine.

No matter if these are all problems due to 3rd party drivers or whatever and that you can google the solutions or not install stuff outside the package manager etc. Windows is simply more stable for an end-user perspective and doesn't require you to learn all of its internal workings. For example, why would any user need to know where the hell the Xorg config file is stored to restore the backup or that he even has to do that to get back to a human user interface.

So to not cause misunderstandings: I would hate to have to work in Windows especially for research but I would never personally recommend anyone who is not a computer scientist to install linux (unless you don't give them root access, in which case they cannot do anything or fuck up anything).

Obvious exception is if you are getting really serious into the crunching business, in which case it might make sense to learn some Linux.

Even more convenient for newbies would be to derive a new Linux distro that installs everything required for BOINC and GPUgrid crunching when the OS installs. It would also have a daemon that checks for BOINC and NVIDIA driver updates, informs the user updates are available and installs them if and when the user wants them.

I think this would end up being too time consuming to keep updated.

Not really. There is a tool one can use to derive a new distro from an existing Ubuntu distro. Since the new distro (let's call it Crunchuntu) would be derived from Ubuntu it would use all of Ubuntu's package update and maintenance infrastructure. I wouldn't have to touch or maintain any of that as it's maintained by Debian/Ubuntu and the community. Crunchuntu would be everything Ubuntu is now plus a script that does all the BOINC and GPU setup work you and others want done. That script would ship with the OS and run automatically when you install the OS. It would ask you a few questions, check/verify some stuff then tell you something like "based on your answers and my own checks, I'm going to install <whatever>. If you want something different then click the Advanced button where you can customize the installation to your specific needs else click Proceed to install the items in the above list". Or something similar to that.

The alternative is to have you install some existing distro (Ubuntu LT for example) and then have you download the script and run it manually. You see I would still have to maintain the script but on top of that you have to do extra work downloading and running it. If it's bundled up in the OS then it's one-stop-shopping for you. The only extra work for me with the other approach would be learning how to derive Crunchuntu from Ubuntu but that's something I need to do anyway as part of my plan to take control of all the nukes and declare myself Supreme Ruler of the Solar System For Life.

For instance use Ubuntu LT and make a package that the user can choose from a list such as if he has an Nvidia or AMD gpu, and installs the proper drivers.

I hadn't planned on doing anything for AMD users. And if by "package" you mean a regular Linux style package that resides in a repository and installs via the distro's package manager software.... well that could work but again it means extra work for users. They would have to add the repository to their list of software sources or I would have to get my package included in one of the repositories that are included in the list of software sources installed by the existing Ubuntu. That's a political process I don't want to deal with it. Having users add the repository name is frought with potential errors. They'll leave a spce or comma out of the name and it won't work and then they'll whine about how Linux just isn't user friendly when the real problem is they can't read what's on the screen and type it into a box. Been there, done that, ain't gonna deal with that again. I would rather just create/derive a new distro.

Then Boinc runs and the person goes thru the process of setting up the project, and it looks similar enough to the Windows version that they can just get Boinc up and crunching asap. All of this with very little input from the user and no command line stuff.

I don't plan on altering BOINC for Linux to make it look exactly like BOINC for Windows. The differences are miniscule differences. Users will just have to learn how to cope with the differences. If they can't do that then sorry but there's only so much hand holding I'm willing to do.

Ubuntu LT is JUST an example, it really doesn't matter as whatever works on most Intel and AMD cpu machines is what's needed. Windows is he!!bent on the licensing aspects and way too many people are getting frustrated and would like to move away and have heard about Linux

History repeats itself. Windows succeeded in part because IBM was seen as establishment that was interested only in profit and out of touch with customer needs. Not saying that perception was true, just saying that was the perception. Bill Gates was a likeable nerd who drove around in a Volkswagen and sang silly songs. Now Microsoft is perceived as the money grubbing out of touch establishment and people are beginning to reject it the way they rejected IBM. Don't be surprised if Microsoft gets out of the OS market within the next 10 years and limits itself to apps that run on Linux or Android. The only other way they'll compete with Android and survive in the OS market is to hire Linus Torvalds, fire everybody else right down to the janitor and let Torvalds show them how it's done.

but it is just too daunting if you haven't done it before, or in awhile. Sure you can install Linux and be cpu crunching in no time, but gpu crunching is a whole other matter and sometimes you even need to put in delays etc to make it work. Then other times it won't automatically start back up again after a pc restart, you click the X and the thing shuts down unlike in Windows where it minimizes, etc, etc. In short all kinds of differences between the two OS's is the problem in getting people to switch and just crunch.

I think some of those odd behaviors can be attributed to PICNIC.

I don't need a machine that does dvd recording or whatever, I just need a setup that can be expanded to do that later on if I wish, but gets me up and crunching asap.

See that's another reason for creating Crunchuntu. I could trim it down to something leaner than Ubuntu, eliminate services that most crunchers will never use, install services that crunchers really could use, etc. It would retain the ability to install all the non-BOINC related applications and services later, if the user wants them.

Examples of BOINC related services/apps that could be auto installed and configured in Crunchuntu:

*A PXE boot setup/configuration wizard that helps those with BOINC farms setup their farm so that it needs only 1 disk. All the crunch boxes boot off that disk and use it for storage. It makes it easy(er) to configure BOINC for a number of different machines and it wears out only 1 disk instead of several.

*Sometimes tasks get stuck and will run forever until they're aborted in spite of safeguards in BOINC. Why not have a service that watches for stuck tasks and either aborts them or suspends them, notifies the user, etc.

*Some projects, CPDN for example, have tasks that run for weeks. How about a service that automatically backs up those tasks and restores them if they crash before completion?

*If you crunch several different projects it can be a bit of a chore to go to each project's website and check if your results are verifying. It would be nice to have a service that does that for you once a day, every other day or whatever and reports how many of your results failed for each project you crunch. It could even suspend any project for which you receive more than say 3 failed verifications in a row or more than say 10 per week.

*How about a service that tracks exactly how much time BOINC gives to each of your projects and creates pie charts you can use to see if the scheduler is respecting your share allocations?

*How about an app that analyses your system and BOINC configuration once in a while to see if you've got any obvious configuration errors?

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BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

I've never had those kinds of problems with Linux but then I don't use a USB soundcard, second monitor, screensaver (wtf for), etc., and I doubt most users do. Also, I've heard similar reports about Windows and OSX. Myself, I find Ubuntu far more stable than Windows ever was. As for intuitive... well, intuitive is a mindset. Now that I'm used to Ubuntu I find Windows incredibly non-intuitive and a real PITA to do anything with. I hate it and avoid it as much as possible.

If Windows is working for you and you don't mind paying for upgrades then stick with it. If it's not working for you then give Linux a shot, that's all I'm saying. If your GPUs aren't running as well as they could and it's because of Windows' driver model then consider Linux.

Sometimes I think every OS sucks even Linux and that if one could somehow quantify how much each one sucks you'd find they all suck about the same amount and the only difference is they suck in different ways or at different frequency. However, if I'm going to be stuck with an OS that sucks then I'll pick the one I don't have to pay for and the one that annoys me the least. If what skgivens says about Microsoft using Linux server in their data centre(s) is true then apparently Microsoft feels somewhat the way I do about the matter.

For the average user whose activities are restricted to email, live chat, skype, web surfing, collecting and organizing music and photos, scanning photos, watching videos and other run of the mill activities I truly believe Linux is every bit as good as Windows and OSX if not better, that's it's more stable and just as intuitive after you've used it for a while. And at a far lower cost.

I also know people who use it in commercial enterprise settings for drafting, engineering, website development and SCADA and they say they'll never go back to Windows.

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BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

I have been using Linux for quite a few years now. I still find that they are the most counter-intuitive OS (compared to Windows and OSX) with the highest learning curve and the highest instability.

Don't misunderstand me, I love working in Linux and cannot imagine working in Windows.

BUT I have never managed to crash Windows as badly as Linux and so frequently. Here's a list of my favorites:

Try installing a nice screensaver? Reboot and you are back to console without a clue on how to boot into gnome because your x-server configuration got fucked up.
Try installing the ATI drivers for your graphics card manually (not from a repo)? Reboot - graphics are all fucked up and there is no Add/Remove Programs where you can find the drivers to uninstall them.
Connect my USB sound card? Machine freezes requiring reboot.
Second hard drive dead? Can't reboot into gnome, have to fix from command line.
Right click on Nvidia manager panel icon to configure second monitor? Crash machine.

No matter if these are all problems due to 3rd party drivers or whatever and that you can google the solutions or not install stuff outside the package manager etc. Windows is simply more stable for an end-user perspective and doesn't require you to learn all of its internal workings. For example, why would any user need to know where the hell the Xorg config file is stored to restore the backup or that he even has to do that to get back to a human user interface.

So to not cause misunderstandings: I would hate to have to work in Windows especially for research but I would never personally recommend anyone who is not a computer scientist to install linux (unless you don't give them root access, in which case they cannot do anything or fuck up anything).

Obvious exception is if you are getting really serious into the crunching business, in which case it might make sense to learn some Linux.

Emm, I have quite the opposite experience. From 2001 (when I started with Linux) until now I've only had 3 or 4 crashes on my machines, and they were all due to prop drivers. Linux has been rock solid for me over the years. Sure, I had some lockups here and there, but it was mostly due to new hardware being initially supported by the kernel, so its in-kernel drivers had some issues.

I don't know what distro you use, but it surely can't be good if you had so many problems. Also, once you know where "everything" is located, I find Linux to be more better structured than the Windows mess (talking about directory hierarchy/locations and the mess called the registry)

In Linux, when something goes bad like your Xorg issues, at least it drops you to a console where you can do something about it. Bad driver in Windows? Enjoy your cryptic error massage and sit back 'cause you don't get a console to at least try to find out what's wrong. Clueless people will take such thing to the computer shop for a reinstall because there's no ability offered to them to fix it.

Yes, Linux has still a lot of issues and I don't recommend it to people who are not serious about getting to know the system a bit, which then unleashes its true power. I still recommend Windows for your average Joe who only needs Facebook/Twitter/email and office.

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Team Belgium

See that's another reason for creating Crunchuntu. I could trim it down to something leaner than Ubuntu, eliminate services that most crunchers will never use, install services that crunchers really could use, etc. It would retain the ability to install all the non-BOINC related applications and services later, if the user wants them.

Examples of BOINC related services/apps that could be auto installed and configured in Crunchuntu:

*A PXE boot setup/configuration wizard that helps those with BOINC farms setup their farm so that it needs only 1 disk. All the crunch boxes boot off that disk and use it for storage. It makes it easy(er) to configure BOINC for a number of different machines and it wears out only 1 disk instead of several.

*Sometimes tasks get stuck and will run forever until they're aborted in spite of safeguards in BOINC. Why not have a service that watches for stuck tasks and either aborts them or suspends them, notifies the user, etc.

*Some projects, CPDN for example, have tasks that run for weeks. How about a service that automatically backs up those tasks and restores them if they crash before completion?

*If you crunch several different projects it can be a bit of a chore to go to each project's website and check if your results are verifying. It would be nice to have a service that does that for you once a day, every other day or whatever and reports how many of your results failed for each project you crunch. It could even suspend any project for which you receive more than say 3 failed verifications in a row or more than say 10 per week.

*How about a service that tracks exactly how much time BOINC gives to each of your projects and creates pie charts you can use to see if the scheduler is respecting your share allocations?

*How about an app that analyses your system and BOINC configuration once in a while to see if you've got any obvious configuration errors?

I'M IN where can I download it?!!!!!

What are the stumbling blocks?

Curious you should ask. I just built a new Haswell machine (4770) a couple of days ago, and while waiting for my Windows disc to arrive, thought I would try Linux Mint 16 Cinnamon 64-bit. That is supposed to be easy to use, and this is a dedicated machine, so I don't have to worry about anything except BOINC on it. But it will be remotely controlled over the LAN, which leads to several problems.

You have to learn what Root, Home and Swap directories are before you can even install it, and guess what size they should be; not a problem in Windows.

You next find out that you can't access the BOINC folder to install the files for remote viewing of BOINCTasks until you Take Ownership, which is not a problem in Windows. And of course you are stuck with whatever version of BOINC they give you (7.2.7) unless you want to try and figure out how to install the latest version yourself. Windows makes it trivially easy to install BOINC, or anything else for that matter.

Now for the good part. I need a remote desktop control program, so tried TightVNC, which works fine on my Windows machines. But using either the TightVNC or VNC server under Mint, and the Linux machine crashes as soon as I try to access it over the LAN. It is some sort of known bug, but don't see a solution applicable to me. Maybe it will be fixed in the next version, whenever that is.

But at least BOINC works properly running WCG/MCM on the CPU, which was the first test (well except when VNC crashed, which errored out those work units).

However, to run my GTX 660s for GPUGrid, I need to reduce the number of CPU cores used for WCG. But I now find that I can't change the percentage of processors in use (or any other BOINC preference), probably because of the above-noted change in ownership, but I really don't have the enthusiasm to find out. It won't really be a problem, since I will be replacing Linux as soon as my Windows disc arrives.

Addendum: None of the usual utilities (GPU-Z, etc.) for measuring CPU and GPU temperature are available, and the Linux equivalents are hard to find and install; a lot of them need to be run from the command line, and aren't very convenient to use. (Even finding programs in the start list, or whatever they call it in Mint, is not as easy as it is in Windows.)

I think Linux is fine if you use it in your work, but hopeless for home use. Bill Gates need not worry about his MS stock, unless they do themselves in by Win8.

I'M IN where can I download it?!!!!!

I'll let you know where you can download it after I build it, if I can build it. If I can't then I'll have to drop back to plan B which is where you install an available distro, let it update then download and install either a script or a package that does all of the other things for you.

I can build scripts now so I might even just start off with that scenario and try for Crunchuntu later when I learn how to do that.

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BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

I think Linux is fine if you use it in your work, but hopeless for home use. Bill Gates need not worry about his MS stock, unless they do themselves in by Win8.

No doubt Windows is easy. It's what you know. Don't expect Linux to work/look/behave the same. After all, if it did, what's the point in having it?

It's not hopeless for home use. My mom used to use it after some getting used to. She watches mostly movies on it and does some mail reading. My mom is both a techno-phobic and tech-illiterate so anything to do with technology, she's scare of and not very interested in. Sadly, my mom is no longer (died of cancer a year ago). And here's the thing and "advantage" she has. She's never used computers much, so it doesn't matter to her whether it's Windows or Linux. I just put her in front and explained a few things on how to use it and where stuff goes to (like saving in /home/username, etc). After a few days, she stopped asking questions and got familiar. Never complained once about it. The "advantage" here is, from the perspective of a person who's never used a PC, it doesn't matter what you offer them. If they have the support, eventually they'll learn to use it with ease

I use it on all my home computers and is just fine for home use. I don't have problems with permissions, watching or encoding videos, listening to and managing my music, writing websites, writing documents, etc. Of course, I'm very familiar with it but I wasn't born with that knowledge. It takes both time and effort to get to know a new platform. I've been there and seen it all from the beginning. Everyone's been a noob at some point, right? :)

This is the problem with most people. They try out something totally different and new to them, see it doesn't work like the thing they're used to, and get discouraged and go back to their familiar stuff.

"Not having enthusiasm" translates to me as "I just gave up" because I'm not interested/lazy/takes too much time/etc.

Look at Win8. A lot of people I know are just confused by Metro and want their old familiar desktop back. Same thing applies to Linux. It's different so they want the old back instead of sticking with the different and learning it. But it takes effort and persistence

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Team Belgium

This is the problem with most people. They try out something totally different and new to them, see it doesn't work like the thing they're used to, and get discouraged and go back to their familiar stuff.

I was using the vi editor under Unix before most people on this forum were born, and dearly hoped never to see it again. I think I will keep it that way.

But as with most such discussions, after asking why Bill Gates is a billionaire rather than the developers of Linux, the partisans ignore the results. I would not expect anything less.

What are the stumbling blocks?

Curious you should ask.

Curious you should reply just to confirm what we already know... we can't drive a Ferrari like we drove our old Volkswagen Beetle and expect satisfactory results. When you're ready to spend a little time learning to drive a Ferrari, it really isn't that hard, I think you'll be amazed.

Sorry to hear your GPU will continue to perform poorly on Win8.

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BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters