I always install the PS with the fan on the bottom. There's enough of an airspace. Even if you turned it upside down the fan inside the PS would be sucking in the air and expelling it out the back of the case. Holes in the botton are OK, maybe more airflow but the floor level is also where the dirt/dust is. Take your pick, I've heard both sides argued. Big surprise...

After reading it again I understand. Off course to fan in the PSU sucks as well, so it could help as extra cooling faced up.

If the PSU at the bottom, there is no point to place it facing up. The idea of the PSU at the bottom is to make the PSU run cooler by having fresh, cool air directly from the outside. It's too bad that the PSU works like a vacuum cleaner, but it's almost the same when it's placed above the MB. The dirt/dust caused mainly by people walking around the PCs reaching approximately to 1m high, so there is a little difference if the PSU is at the bottom, or at the top of the MB, regarding the dirt.

I always install the PS with the fan on the bottom. There's enough of an airspace. Even if you turned it upside down the fan inside the PS would be sucking in the air and expelling it out the back of the case. Holes in the botton are OK, maybe more airflow but the floor level is also where the dirt/dust is. Take your pick, I've heard both sides argued. Big surprise...

After reading it again I understand. Off course to fan in the PSU sucks as well, so it could help as extra cooling faced up.

If the PSU at the bottom, there is no point to place it facing up. The idea of the PSU at the bottom is to make the PSU run cooler by having fresh, cool air directly from the outside. It's too bad that the PSU works like a vacuum cleaner, but it's almost the same when it's placed above the MB. The dirt/dust caused mainly by people walking around the PCs reaching approximately to 1m high, so there is a little difference if the PSU is at the bottom, or at the top of the MB, regarding the dirt.

Then I will go for a case with holes in the bottom and a filter where the PSU fits.
I have seen many set-ups with the PSU in the top, with the fan down wards, even by top brands.
Sleep tight y´all.

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Greetings from TJ

The problem had a "financial" component: those, who bought AMD for their lower prices, usually bought a cheaper mainboard for it, and these cheaper mainboards were made of cheaper components.

If true (it wasn't for me) it's not exactly fair to compare low quality boards to high quality boards.

Sure. But that's life. I'm kind of a solution provider, and I think of a PC as a complex system, which should be bought, used and maintained for many years. Not like the majority of the customers, who doesn't understand that, they just want to lower their purchasing expenses, but they don't know that the cheap is the more expensive through to the end of its lifetime.

So are you saying that AMD isn't good because you bought poor quality motherboards for them and those boards failed at a higher rate?

No, I'm not saying that, that's nonsense. We're talking about how our past experiences influence our present choices (in our case, why am I an Intel "fan"). I'm saying that any system built by cheap components to minimize its purchasing expenses will fail earlier, than an optimal one. In the PC's world AMD and VIA were definitely targeted those, who wanted such PCs. (I was working in a custom made PC shop until 2002).
As I've said it earlier: A recent AMD CPU isn't as much power effective as a recent Intel CPU. That's the main difference between them, everything else can be deducted from this. There were times (P4), when it was quite the opposite. But today, a recent Intel CPU is more advanced as a CPU, but an AMD "CPU" is more advanced as an APU (CPU+GPU). But their APU abilities are irrelevant here at GPUGrid.

They all were on APC 600 sine wave UPSes (I bought a bulk purchase of them) and used them both at businesses and here. A couple of the AMD systems were just on surge strips. They weren't damaged and made me wonder about the importance of UPSes...

If they were APC Back UPS 600, they could make the situation worse, because they are switching (offline) type UPSes. They switch to batteries only when the power fails (you can hear the relays clicking inside when it happens). When a power failure is caused by lightning, this behavior can double the amplitude of the surge on the "protected" equipment. The electricity supply of sensitive equipment should be made uninterruptable by online UPSes (for example the APC Smart series), which are always run from the batteries, however the batteries are always charged from the mains. In that way the protected equipment is not connected to the source of the surges, and when a power outage happens, the switch to batteries won't cause an additional surge, because no such switch taking place.

So are you saying that AMD isn't good because you bought poor quality motherboards for them and those boards failed at a higher rate?

No, I'm not saying that, that's nonsense. We're talking about how our past experiences influence our present choices (in our case, why am I an Intel "fan"). I'm saying that any system built by cheap components to minimize its purchasing expenses will fail earlier, than an optimal one.

I was pulling your leg a little bit ;-)

They all were on APC 600 sine wave UPSes (I bought a bulk purchase of them) and used them both at businesses and here. A couple of the AMD systems were just on surge strips. They weren't damaged and made me wonder about the importance of UPSes...

If they were APC Back UPS 600, they could make the situation worse, because they are switching (offline) type UPSes. They switch to batteries only when the power fails (you can hear the relays clicking inside when it happens). When a power failure is caused by lightning, this behavior can double the amplitude of the surge on the "protected" equipment. The electricity supply of sensitive equipment should be made uninterruptable by online UPSes (for example the APC Smart series), which are always run from the batteries, however the batteries are always charged from the mains. In that way the protected equipment is not connected to the source of the surges, and when a power outage happens, the switch to batteries won't cause an additional surge, because no such switch taking place.

By sine wave UPS I was indicating they were the APC Smart-UPS 600. I was also oversimplifying a bit (saving some typing). All were APC Smart-UPS models. One of the failed Intel servers was on a Smart-UPS 900 and one was a Smart-UPS 1400 with both an Intel server and an AMD desktop attached. The Intel server failed and the AMD ran until it was obsolete for my use and I gave it to someone who needed a PC.

I think we're all smart enough not to blame failing motherboards on either Intel or AMD ;) And from personal experience CPUs last pretty much infinitely (until you don't want to use them any more), unless you run them at serious voltages, but mainboards and PSUs fail far more often, followed by HDDs and GPUs.

And from the chipset and driver side I don't think there are any reservations against the current choices for AMD. The SATA controller may be a bit slower, there's no SSD caching availalbe like Intel SRT and there's no native PCIe 3. But none of this is a game stopper for crunching GPU-Grid. For POEM on anything but low-end cards you'd need the full 16x PCIe 3, though.

In conclusion: it really boils down to your project choices (what's the CPU performance differnce there) and electricity price (how much does the higher power consumtpion for the AMD CPU cost you).

MrS

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Scanning for our furry friends since Jan 2002

I think we're all smart enough not to blame failing motherboards on either Intel or AMD ;) And from personal experience CPUs last pretty much infinitely (until you don't want to use them any more), unless you run them at serious voltages, but mainboards and PSUs fail far more often, followed by HDDs and GPUs.

CPUs are definitely one of the hardier components. I had a few PII and PIII CPUs fail (but MOSTLY the ones on daughterboards and the culprit might have been the daughterboards they came on). Same result though, they were toast. The only AMDs I ever had fail were a couple of K-5 CPUs (their worst processor design ever) a long time ago. I would agree that current CPUs are one of the most bulletproof components in a computer. If the CPU cost savings allows you to buy a better MB and other components though the equation can change. Lately it's been HDs that have been most troublesome for me. I think that HD quality has been going down, down, down.

And from the chipset and driver side I don't think there are any reservations against the current choices for AMD. The SATA controller may be a bit slower, there's no SSD caching availalbe like Intel SRT and there's no native PCIe 3. But none of this is a game stopper for crunching GPU-Grid. For POEM on anything but low-end cards you'd need the full 16x PCIe 3, though.

I think there's an AM3+ ASUS board with PCIe 3 but not sure how available it is. Haven't done POEM for a while but it's another one I ran up to 500,000,000 credits. As I remember it did well on the HD 5850 and 5870 GPUs running 5x WUs on PCIe 2 x16 at a fairly high GPU usage. Einstein also runs pretty well in an x16 slot but takes a hit when run on a card in an x4 slot. Some difference also in GPUGrid bur not so much.

Part of our discussion here seems to revolve around two different philosophies. One philosophy is that since AMD processors are less expensive, then people are going with components that are all cheaper. My philosophy is that if someone's budget is say $1000, then save money on the less expensive CPU and install a better MB, PS and GPU. As far as power saving goes, a part of the cost savings can buy you a gold or platinum PS that offers power reduction for the whole system and can possibly net you a power reduction overall.

I think there's an AM3+ ASUS board with PCIe 3 but not sure how available it is.

Yes can be ordered in the Netherlands even, 215 euri.

https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/SABERTOOTH_990FXGEN3_R20/

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Greetings from TJ

Part of our discussion here seems to revolve around two different philosophies. One philosophy is that since AMD processors are less expensive, then people are going with components that are all cheaper. My philosophy is that if someone's budget is say $1000, then save money on the less expensive CPU and install a better MB, PS and GPU. As far as power saving goes, a part of the cost savings can buy you a gold or platinum PS that offers power reduction for the whole system and can possibly net you a power reduction overall.

Interesting, if I take €1000 (instead of $1000) and I try to find rather good stuff, not the cheap things and not the expensive things. No Samsung, LG, etc. but Asus, Evga, Kingston, Seagate or WD, then €1000 is not enough.
Having two GTX660, an SSD, HD, DVD-ROM, OS, CPU-cooler, PSU already (roughly €800), I need at least €800 to get the rest of the parts.
To my opinion this must mean that ready of the shelf PC's for 400-1500 euri are junk for our needs.

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Greetings from TJ

Whatever your price target is. $1000 was simply an example. In the US I can build a pretty nice PC for $1000 though, especially considering watching for sales and rebates.

To my opinion this must mean that ready of the shelf PC's for 400-1500 euri are junk for our needs.

I think with 1500 euro one can build a pretty decent 24/7 cruncher.

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Whatever your price target is. $1000 was simply an example. In the US I can build a pretty nice PC for $1000 though, especially considering watching for sales and rebates.

That is what I do. HD, SSD, DVD-ROM, Blue Ray, mice, all with 30-50% rebate at "today only" sales.
Off course I understand that you took it as an example. Yeah prices in the US are great, especially when converting to Euro. I don´t look at your prices anymore :-( Long time ago I have ordered memory in the US and I knew that shipping was relative expensive and that customs would intervene and charge me on top of it, but then it was still way cheaper then in the Netherlands.
The two GTX660 have cost me €420, so €580 for the rest is not possible in the Netherlands.

Vagelis
I can indeed build one for less than €1500, but these has other parts then a of the shelf one, that is what I meant.

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Greetings from TJ

Part of our discussion here seems to revolve around two different philosophies. One philosophy is that since AMD processors are less expensive, then people are going with components that are all cheaper. My philosophy is that if someone's budget is say $1000, then save money on the less expensive CPU and install a better MB, PS and GPU. As far as power saving goes, a part of the cost savings can buy you a gold or platinum PS that offers power reduction for the whole system and can possibly net you a power reduction overall.

My view point is actually neither. I don't think working with hard budgets makes much sense but instead strive to find an optimal solution in terms of total cost of ownership. I choose components approximately like this:

1. What do I need to fulfill the required role well, as cheap as possible?
2. Quick budget check. If failed skip step 3 and 4.
3. Could I add anything to substantially improve the value of the system? (performance, usability, upgradeability, running costs)
4. Is the price OK?
5. Compromises, if necessary.

This way I'm trying to get an optimal configuration first and foremost: do everything the machine needs to do, as cheap as possible as a starting point, but upgraded where it makes the most sense.

If I then end up with 450€ after compromises and someone says he can only spend 400€, I'd advice him to save a bit longer or not to spend that money on a PC upgrade at all (if it's not urgently needed), rather than getting a half-baked solution which might not work all that well.

Of course this is simplified. Actually the "as cheap as possible" does relate somewhat to the rough budget. And how I value a system also includes some estimate of how long it will stay usable. If spending 50€ more on a CPU with significantly higher single-threaded performance means this system will still feel snappy enough for 2 - 3 years longer than the alternative, then it's an upgrade which actually enhances the value. That's not easy to predict, though.

MrS

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Scanning for our furry friends since Jan 2002

The T7400 has two Xeons E5430 and thus 8 real cores and runs quite cool. But these Xeons are old and are end of live as Intel said.
The most recent Xeons are to expensive, but how are the ideas´s about a previous generation Xeon?

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Greetings from TJ

I think your two E5430 Xeons will be pretty decent crunchers! Not high-end by any means, but the fact you have 8 real full cores (with FP units) means you'll have decent BOINC throughput. 8 full cores aren't easy to find!

Look here for this processor's relative performance in cpubenchmark.net. The fact that you have two CPUs means that, at least for BOINC usage, you'll have almost twice the performance, being somewhere here. Not bad at all!

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I think your two E5430 Xeons will be pretty decent crunchers! Not high-end by any means, but the fact you have 8 real full cores (with FP units) means you'll have decent BOINC throughput. 8 full cores aren't easy to find!

Look here for this processor's relative performance in cpubenchmark.net. The fact that you have two CPUs means that, at least for BOINC usage, you'll have almost twice the performance, being somewhere here. Not bad at all!

That is a nice overview Vagelis, thanks.

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Greetings from TJ

Skgiven has a nice idea of getting a cheap i3 or i5 and make a rig for GPU crunching only. But I know myself then I will do more with the system and then it won´t work. Not that I am depended on 1 system. I have taken a lot of old stuff home from work...Won´t do that anymore, unless there is a T7400 :)

I went for an even cheaper G2020 (~£50), rather than an i3 for ~£120, an MSI board with 3 slots (2 immediately useful, but the 3rd has potential if I use a riser) and a reasonable 80+ PSU (30decibels at400W).
My i7-3770K @4.2GHz is in an identical 2/3 PCIE slot sub-€100 motherboard with two GPU’s (was 3 for a while with a riser).
While the Gigabyte GA-Z87X-OC is an excellent motherboard and something I might consider if I wanted 3 or 4 top GPU’s (GTX780s) for a new build, my ambitions are rather more reserved, and I like the challenge of doing it on the cheap.
Going by the specs, even the ‘GA-X58-OC Force’ motherboard won’t allow you to have 4 GPU running at PCIE3X16. Anyway, it's an extreme end board and requires water cooling - it's for rich plumbers :)

The two GTX660 have cost me €420, so €580 for the rest is not possible in the Netherlands.

You can buy the following from Amazon.de:

Two GTX 660’s (€182each) €364
Corsair TX650 €75
Motherboard ~€90
8GB DDR3 €65
CPU ~€60
128GB SSD €78
External USB2 DVDRW €30
Antec Three Hundred Two €66
- Total €828

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By sine wave UPS I was indicating they were the APC Smart-UPS 600. I was also oversimplifying a bit (saving some typing). All were APC Smart-UPS models. One of the failed Intel servers was on a Smart-UPS 900 and one was a Smart-UPS 1400 with both an Intel server and an AMD desktop attached. The Intel server failed and the AMD ran until it was obsolete for my use and I gave it to someone who needed a PC.

That is very strange. However you should have asked APC for some compensation... There were no insurance on those UPSes?

The T7400 has two Xeons E5430 and thus 8 real cores and runs quite cool. But these Xeons are old and are end of live as Intel said.
The most recent Xeons are to expensive, but how are the ideas´s about a previous generation Xeon?

8 physical cores is nice for throughput, but essentially these Xeons are Core 2 Quad Q9450 with a slightly lower TDP (80 W vs. 95 W). Their performance is best compared to current CPUs for computationally dense code, which is not limited by
memory performance and where HT doesn't help much, and for code which doesn't use anything newer than SSE4.1.

Last gen Xeons are always a bad idea for BOINC because short of going to 4 sockets these are just the same as the desktop chips. Slightly different binning and configurations, but no fundamental differences. By going to the last gen you hardly save mooney, but pretty much always loose power efficiency and features. That's why I don't recommend Sandy Brdige for BOINC any more.

MrS

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Scanning for our furry friends since Jan 2002

By sine wave UPS I was indicating they were the APC Smart-UPS 600. I was also oversimplifying a bit (saving some typing). All were APC Smart-UPS models. One of the failed Intel servers was on a Smart-UPS 900 and one was a Smart-UPS 1400 with both an Intel server and an AMD desktop attached. The Intel server failed and the AMD ran until it was obsolete for my use and I gave it to someone who needed a PC.

That is very strange. However you should have asked APC for some compensation... There were no insurance on those UPSes?

Homeowners insurance paid for most of it since there was enough damage to go well over the deductible.