Thanks guys, this is good info.
Well this is my first and only liquid cooling. Water feels not that warm.
There where more problems with the Alienware. It is a nice system and my dad bought it for me.
Unfortunately my dad died before the system arrived. I am not into dark magic, but the system had problems from the start. Eventually they sent a complete new one and that ran fine. But temperatures of CPU to high, but 42°C when idle. According to Dell this (high temperatures) is normal...

I will power it down tomorrow and replace the coolant past. I suppose I can safely remove the whole thing on the processor without dismantling the water unit and such? Have never done that before.

Nice program Zoltan, thanks.

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Greetings from TJ

There is more information coming, this is good but makes it more difficult to choose right as well for me.
I found this MOBO: EVGA Classified SR-2 - Mainboard - HPTX, 270-WS-W555-E1.
Okay bit expensive but can fit two CPU's and easily 3 or 4 GPU's.
But isn't it a bit "over the top" for crunching?

I will also do CPU crunching for Rosetta, Docking or Fightmalaria. I have chosen these projects for their cause. So need to be rather fast, but not to expensive and not to much energy. (I have a rather high energy bill, but need way less heating in the winter :) But this is my way to help science to eventually cure some highly affecting diseases.) That was why I was thinking of a six core i7 and then with HT 8 cores for CPU crunching and 4 for GPU crunching and 1 or 2 idle.

For a crunching system I need:
MOBO,
CPU,
Memory,
Hard disk,
PSU,
Case with fans
(CD-ROM/DVD-ROM to install drivers)
And that's it, am I correct?

Should be nice to compare if several people give some ideas about combination of MOBO, CPU and PSU. (GPU will be GTX660 or better if prices fall in the coming weeks months).

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Greetings from TJ

The chip of the CPU series prior to Ivy Bridge (namely Sandy Bridge, Sandy Bridge-E, Gulftown, Bloomfield) were actually soldered to the IHS (Integrated Heat Spreader, the metal housing of the chip) resulting in good thermal transfer to the IHS, and low CPU temperatures. But Intel using some "cheap" thermal interface material (TIM) on the new series, so if you want lower CPU temperatures to overclock more, you should remove the IHS (voiding warranty), and put the CPU cooler directly onto the chip (very risky), and/or use better and/or thinner TIM. See this video.

The reason Intel switched from solder to TIM on IB was because the conductivity of the solder was not compatible with the new tri gate resistor technology.

For crunching the i7-4770K has nothing over i7-3770K. In fact I would say it's just an i7-3770K done all wrong! Seriously, we don't want lots of USB3 ports and another crap iGPU (which hiked the TDP from 77W to 84W).

Two major updates with no improvement on desktop boxes.

I measured the actual crunching difference at 4.2GHz of an i7-2600K and an i7-3770K for ~14 CPU projects and there was nothing between them. Only one app from one project was significantly faster (7%), and many were slightly (1 to 3%) faster on the 2600K.

Yep, both Intel and AMD have had little performance increase on the desktop. The big difference is price. AMD has made significant strides in onboard graphics performance though. Intel is trying to catch up in that department.

Has AMD any plans to go to PCIE3.0 boards?

PCI Express 3.0 - The Latest Graphics Standard Now on AMD Boards:

http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/SABERTOOTH_990FXGEN3_R20

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/ces_2013_look_ma_amds_990fx_does_have_pcie_30_support_video

AMD is one of the major players in PCIe 4.0. I've heard rumors that some of their latest processors already include support, so perhaps they're not too concerned with wholeheartedly supporting version 3, although 4 is still a ways off AFAIK.

PCI Express 4 in the Works: Set to Achieve 16Gb/s per Lane.:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/display/20110624231122_PCI_Express_4_in_the_Works_Set_to_Achieve_16Gb_s_per_Lane.html

@Beyond: because even if you can find a project where AMD CPU provide good performance (you can, as you said), the energy efficiency is far too bad for general 24/7 crunching, compared to Intel. I know there are places where electricity is much cheaper than where I live, but I don't think the Netherlands belong to these. Otherwise I like some of what AMD is doing and whish they could do it even better (sore points: single threaded integer performance of Bulldozer and children, power efficiency, smarter turbo modes to be more specific). MrS

Happens to be my favorite CPU project: Yoyo. Energy efficiency? The current Phenom X6 has a TDP of 95w, Haswell is 84w. Whoopie, 11 watts. What's the Netherlands have to do with anything? I was thinking of trying a Haswell, but after reading many reviews I'd probably go with a used Sandy Bridge at this point and save some bucks. I do like to support AMD as they've historically been the only company pushing Intel and keeping Intel from robbing us blind like they used to. For crunching on AMD the X6 is still the best unless you're also using the built in GPUs on some of the latest parts.

For 1 kWh electricity you have to pay 0,23 eurocent ($0,31/kWh) in the Netherlands. 11 Watts is something like 96 kWh for 1 year (theoretical) full load. And thats more expensive compared to other countries... (I've seen a topic about this??? hmm)

But the TDP number isn't a guide to for what the cpu really uses. The Intel TDP-number is a long-term number for maximum power consumption and has nothing to do with the real maximum power.
Only reallife benchmarks with full load for a similar system (with the same PSU, RAM, GPU, HDD) will give you the real and good numbers for your comparison. I guess you dont buy only a CPU!!! All elements on your total system are important for (full load or any) power consumption (power use from chipsets, vrm's and so on).

Intel will give you not only a more efficient cpu with Haswell, but also built in VRM's, built in north bridge/IMC and a efficient southbridge (32nm vs 65nm).

I pay only 11 eurocent per 1KW during the day and 5 cent at nighttime, in the Netherlands. And the end of the year when the bill arrives there is a tax surcharge for the total amount of electricity used. I use a lot indeed and after final calculation this means, in my case, I have to pay 16.44 eurocent per 1KW. (I use around 1KW per hour, depending if I am free and have several rigs running).

But I don't care about the power consumption. This threat is to get a lot of information about a good rig for GPUGRID and Rosetta (and Einstein, Docking and Malaria as back-up projects).

So I am still waiting for some replay on some of my messages below. But I am patient.

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Greetings from TJ

I pay only 11 eurocent per 1KW during the day and 5 cent at nighttime, in the Netherlands. And the end of the year when the bill arrives there is a tax surcharge for the total amount of electricity used. I use a lot indeed and after final calculation this means, in my case, I have to pay 16.44 eurocent per 1KW. (I use around 1KW per hour, depending if I am free and have several rigs running).

Electricity is $0.09/ kilowatt here (kind of off peak, fixed rate but allows the power company to cycle the heating and air conditioning). Don't use air conditioning more than 1 or 2 days a year and don't use heating at all (the computers provide more than enough heat [Minnesota]).

So I am still waiting for some replay on some of my messages below. But I am patient.

You've seen more than enough jabbering about CPUs from various fanboys (me included). XFX, Antec, Corsair, Seasonic and Sparkle all make good power supplies. Google some reviews on the particular model you're looking at, although the gold and platinum models of any of these are most likely very good. The Rosewill platinum line seems to be good too. I mostly use low cost Antec 300 cases. Very good air flow. You'll have to add at least a 120mm side fan and a front fan or two. The last case I bought was the NZXT Source 210 and it's very impressive for the cost:

http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=804&Itemid=99999999&limit=1&limitstart=4

In my experience ASUS, ASRock, Gigabyte, MSI, Foxconn and Biostar all make some good and bad motherboards. I'd stay away from ECS completely. Read the reviews (including newegg comments) and make sure the PCIe configuration (preferably 2 x16 lanes) and spacing is good for 2 GPUs.

With ECS you mean: Elitegroup Computer Systems? I don't think it is to find in the Netherlands. There is not one large store that has everything. There are few on the net, but also limited stock/availability.
I have a PSU from Corsair and that one is indeed very good (with a lot of plugs).

I found a 80 gold PSU from EVGA, and a MOBO from EVGA with good space for three GPU's and of course EVGA GPU's and all to order directly from EVGA in Germany.
And as I like EVGA, I will go for them.
For the CPU I am still thinking but I guess an i7 (6 or 4 core) which uses not to much Watt and Zalman cooler.

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Greetings from TJ

With ECS you mean: Elitegroup Computer Systems?

You got it.

I found a 80 gold PSU from EVGA, and a MOBO from EVGA with good space for three GPU's and of course EVGA GPU's and all to order directly from EVGA in Germany.
And as I like EVGA, I will go for them.
For the CPU I am still thinking but I guess an i7 (6 or 4 core) which uses not to much Watt and Zalman cooler.

Sounds like a nice machine.

Later today (13 June, or 14 June UTC) I will bring online my new PC.

CPU = AMD FX-8350;
MOBO = ASUS Sabertooth 990FX/GEN3 R2.0;
GPU = ASUS GTX 650 Ti (X2).

The plan for June and July is that one of these will be dedicated to GPUGrid, one to Folding@home and the CPUs to rosetta@home and Drug Search for Leishmaniasis.

My AMD Phenom II 1090T machine is also crunching rosetta@home and Drug Search for Leishmaniasis as well as Folding@home.

Can't wait to get the 8 core working!!

John

That motherboard should be able to handle the just released FX-9590 CPU, I'd like to see how well it does at CPDN.

@TJ

But I don't care about the power consumption. This threat is to get a lot of information about a good rig for GPUGRID and Rosetta (and Einstein, Docking and Malaria as back-up projects).

Yes I know. But my reaction had to do with what Beyond writed:

from Beyond:
Happens to be my favorite CPU project: Yoyo. Energy efficiency? The current Phenom X6 has a TDP of 95w, Haswell is 84w. Whoopie, 11 watts. What's the Netherlands have to do with anything?

Your 16,44ct/kWh is minus energy tax? (heffingskorting in Dutch)

@ your hardware I can't give you a good advice. What I would to do is buy maximum performance for as little money as possible... but you know that too, you aren't stupid! haha ;)
Quadro sounds very good, but two cards of FX4600 are only some renamed 8800GTX cards (or sort of). I should get some second hand 660Ti or 670 now @ Tweakers.net or something.

@TJ
Your 16,44ct/kWh is minus energy tax? (heffingskorting in Dutch)

Yes indeed, I have added all costs, like meter costs, network costs, energy tax, then subtracted the benefits (a few euro because I pay automatic and the part of the energy tax we get back). Then the total divided by the amount of kW I haves used over the last year. A my prices per kW vary (per year) the mean prices varies also per year.
But I use gas only for cooking and showering, not heating :)

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Greetings from TJ

I have an quad with 2 nVidia cards with cuda 1.0 so they are obsolete. I have two AMD hd5870 cards left. I can use these for Einstein. But only 2 6 pins power plugs and I need 4. Now the PSU (700Watt) has a very short 8 bus connector free (female connector). I guess I can use an adapter here from 1 8 pins to 2 6 pins pcie? How is such a cable called? I need on quite long or perhaps with an extra extension cable. However I can not find on, but I guess because I don't now how it is called.
Does anyone know what I am talking about? Thanks.

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Greetings from TJ

If that 8-pin connector is very short I suppose it's the E-ATX CPU power for the mainboard. I wouldn't try to repurpose this for powering GPUs, as I don't know what side effects this might have.

What I'd do: plug one of the 6-pin PCIe plugs into each GPU. HD5870 hardly exceeds 150 W (mainly with Furmark etc.), so this should cover the basic power use. For the remaining 2 power ports I'd use Y-adapters from 4-pin molex to 6-pin PCIe. Connect each arm of the Y to 2 different strands from the PSU (there are probably 2 of them available). I forgot how many molex connectors your PSU has.. I hope it's not the one with just 2. There are also Y-adaptors from 1 molex to 2.. but at this point it might actually become dangerous (possibly drawing 75 W over a line made for 40 W).

BTW: I was ill for a few days and stopped the previous discussion. I disagree with quite a few things mentioned here.. but this doesn't really match the topic anyway. Anyone interested in furtheer Hasweell and "AMD vs. Intel for BOINC" discussions?

MrS

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Scanning for our furry friends since Jan 2002

Thanks ETA, glad you are better again, it was way to warm to be ill a few days ago in our surroundings.

No it is not the same, but this is a Dell too. The other one 1000W is indeed a Gold 80+ but I don't know about its efficiency. I will replace this PSU with a 750W from EVGA, then I have power connectors enough and 90% efficiency. Put the 2 HD5870 in for Einstein and Albert.

Glad to read your advice, I have never seen such a plug. Short wire, long but rather small 8 hole connector. This PSU has only 2 molex free, but I need 4 so I can only put two GPU in there with one 6 pin each (2 GTX660).

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Greetings from TJ

Another question.
The Alienware with the liquid cooling seems to stay pretty hot around 70°C.
So I would like to change it by a Zalman processor cooler and put 2 GTX770 in.
Then I do not need to built a new rig just now, (if I can safe more I can buy better stuff in the winter for lower prices by then (I hope)).
I guess it is safe to take the entire liquid cooler parts out at once? I have inspect the system carefully but rather than a pump on the processor and a radiator in front of a fan there is nothing else. I don't see any reservoir with coolant. Has anyone experience with an Alienware?

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Greetings from TJ

BTW: I was ill for a few days and stopped the previous discussion. I disagree with quite a few things mentioned here.. but this doesn't really match the topic anyway. Anyone interested in furtheer Hasweell and "AMD vs. Intel for BOINC" discussions?

MrS

Good to see you back up and posting.
There are lots of views, slants and takes on AMD and Intel processors, which are mostly multi-threaded now. Maybe worth using the Multicore CPUs thread to present any further facts or opinions.
Would be keen to hear any opinions relating to the cheapest/best setup to support a GPU or multiple GPU's.

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Since the i7-980X there has been little improvement in 'out and out' processing power from either AMD or Intel. Lots of different generations, revisions, sockets, packaging, hype and waffle, but limited performance gain.

It was about time to change the course of the improvement of the processing power. The results of chasing for more and more gigahertzs are Pentium D processors with 95-130W TDP. It was impossible to dissipate that much heat with the supplied coolers. (I don't like them since then, because they can collect a nice tissue on top of the fins of the heatsink, blocking nearly all the airflow, causing overheating, or the CPU underclocking itself.)

Intel and AMD have largely ignored CPU improvement wants from the high end workstation, gaming and crunching markets.

Intel's profit from those marginal markets is insignificant. Just like AMD's, but AMD bought ATi to increase their market coverage.

Instead they have sought gains in other areas; more done on the processor, better performance/watt.

That is what the market needs since then. That is in what the GPUs are better than CPUs. That is why supercomputers are not built on CPUs only anymore. That is why Intel (and AMD) couldn't sell that much CPUs since then. If someone wants to have a high-end workstation with more CPU power (it would be unusual today), it could have two CPUs in it without overheating. Crunching is a long-term activity, so it's better to minimize the cost of the energy it consumes.

At the same time a lot of what we are now working with is the product of marketing strategy; on-die controllers, Intel only chipsets, push towards laptops and portable devices, ...

Nowadays the computing power of mobile devices (smartphones, tablets) is enough for everyday use (office tasks, browsing, social networking), so the office PC/laptop business is in trouble. They have to be more like the mobile devices, or they will become extinct, because the mobile computing devices are much more power efficient.

... fewer PCIE lanes, and the 'shroud of the cloud' (server processors) - all at the expense of high end desktop improvements.

After years of chasing CPU speed to prove the needlessness of 3D accelerators, Intel lost this battle, when the NVidia presented their G80 architecture. So now they focus on what is left for them, and in the meantime trying to catch up with NVidia, AMD (ATi), and ARM. They are 3-5 years behind them, which could be deadly in the computing market.

But the same can be said of NVidia and OpenCL - it's typical business maneuvering.

Without those business maneuvering Intel, AMD and NVidia would be busted, and we couldn't have their devices to crunch on.

When SB arrived we reached the point where a laptop processor existed that was capable of handling >99% of office performance requirements.

Sure. There is no need for faster PCs in the office. But they still could be more power effective, to eliminate active cooling (and the noise and the dust pileup).
I've started my computing experience with passive cooled CPUs (Like Zilog Z80 and MOS 6510 and later the PCs through the Pentium processor), and I (and most of the consumers) would like to have the passive cooling back on modern CPUs of office PCs or laptops.

Since Gulftown, Sandy Bridge-E has been Intel's only attempt at a genuine high end workstation/gaming/crunching system, but it failed to deliver PCIE3 and thus failed almost completely - you don't do CAD on the CPU, don't game on the CPU and don't crunch on the CPU (relatively speaking).

In other words: there is improvement in the high end desktops, but the majority of that comes from NVidia and ATi (AMD), not from Intel.

For crunching the i7-4770K has nothing over i7-3770K.

We'll see, as now I have one. Maybe some projects should gain from the the doubled L1 and L2 cache bandwith, and the other architectural improvements. (I don't expect that the scientific applications could utilize the AVX2)

In fact I would say it's just an i7-3770K done all wrong! Seriously, we don't want lots of USB3 ports and another crap iGPU (which hiked the TDP from 77W to 84W).

If you don't use the iGPU, it won't increase the CPU's power consumption, as the 4xxx series have even more advanced power gating features than the 3xxx series.
The USB3 ports are on the 8x series chipset, which is also more power efficient than the 7x series.
It has nothing to do with your statement above, but I want to share the results of my two system's power consumption measurements:
1. Core2 Duo E6600 (2x2.4GHz), 4x512MB DDR2 800MHz RAM, Intel DQ965GF motherboard
2. Core i7-4770K (8x3.7GHz), 2x2GB DDR3 1333MHz RAM, Gigabyte GA-Z87X-OC motherboard
The PSU and the HDD are the same.
Both systems consumed around 90-96W under full load (Core2 Duo: 2 threads, Core i7: 8 threads)